Leadership Lessons from Nowhere

Leadership Lessons from Nowhere

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Jill Wiltfong:

Hi, I'm Jill Wiltfong, Chief Marketing Officer for Korn Ferry, and this is Briefings, our deep dive into topics that corporate leaders need to care about.

Have you ever been trapped in quicksand? Yes, actual quicksand—stuck knee-deep in the ground with nobody around for miles? How about having to rescue fellow mountaineers after a Himalayan avalanche, or offering courage to a fellow traveler during a terrifying moment of plane turbulence?

We've got some special guests today: top leaders from Korn Ferry who've gone through some pretty unusual experiences. But here's what's even more unusual. They say these moments, which might sound like they came out of a movie script, actually shaped their views on corporate leadership and how to handle pressure.

After all, studies show that about one-third of leaders can't handle high-stakes, high-pressure situations. And that's happening at a time when, frankly, pressure from global events and AI makes these tense moments seem practically common.

But you can't learn this in business school, so let's take a look at leadership lessons from nowhere.

Before we start, if you're watching us on YouTube, please be sure to like, subscribe, and leave a comment to let us know your thoughts on this topic.

I'm joined now by Esther Colwill, President of Korn Ferry in Asia Pacific; Radhika Papandreou, Korn Ferry's President in North America; and Jonathan Dahl, Korn Ferry's Chief Content Officer.

They're all seasoned leaders, and they've got some gripping stories to tell, with life-changing insights that came from each of them. So I'm really excited to have all of you with me today. It's some pretty remarkable stuff.

Jonathan Dahl:

Great to be here.

Jill Wiltfong:

Esther, I want to get right into these stories, and I want to start with you. You are part of a very exclusive club—one of fewer than 500 people. Is that right? Fewer than 500 people who've scaled the seven highest summits of the world.

Just to put that into perspective, how many feet, Esther, was the tallest mountain you climbed?

Esther Colwill:

If you're working in feet, it's just over 29,000 feet.

Jill Wiltfong:

Amazing. Okay, so let's bring that into the corporate world. It's pretty phenomenal that you were able to accomplish that.

You've also said one of the parallels between mountaineering and the pressures you face as a leader comes down to discipline. Talk a little bit about that.

Esther Colwill:

Sure. I think there are two different kinds of discipline. There's preparation discipline, and then there's in-the-moment discipline.

Preparation might be kind of obvious. You've got to know the route. You've got to know where the detours might be if something happens. You've got to know all of that detail.

It's just like in the corporate world when you're preparing for a board meeting, but frankly, also when you're preparing for meetings with colleagues that involve tough conversations. It really changes how you show up if you spend that extra time preparing.

And then I would say that in-the-moment discipline is a little bit like what you talked about with pressure: when something happens and you've got to make a decision.

Jill Wiltfong:

Interesting. So you've talked about discipline. You've also talked a lot about anticipation.

I know when you tried to summit Denali in Alaska, it took three attempts before you actually succeeded. And one of those failed attempts came down to your group leader not adequately anticipating the physical needs of some of your members.

What happened on that trip, and what did that teach you about leadership?

Esther Colwill:

You have to carry a lot of weight through the expedition. You've got a 60-pound pack, you're dragging a sled behind you. It's probably physically the hardest out of all of those expeditions.

It was one of my earlier expeditions as a younger climber. We had a team of eight. We were setting off, all excited, on a beautiful Alaska day, and very quickly it became clear that a couple of the climbers didn't have the strength and experience to carry the weight and handle the conditions.

They were very outspoken. They really wanted to climb. They didn't want to give up.

So the leader said, "Well, look, let's take some of their weight and spread it across the other team members."

So the rest of us physically got extra weight to carry. And, as you can imagine, predictably, a couple of days later the rest of us were more fatigued and more tired, and the two still really couldn't make it.

Very soon, we started running out of supplies. We were too tired, we got delayed, and we had to turn around and go back down.

So it's a very real memory for me about making sure that you listen to the quiet voices you might accidentally overload, and being careful not to just listen to the louder voices.

You really need to understand: How are these team members going to make it? Do they have the capability and competence? It's not necessarily fair to them to keep them there, and it certainly isn't fair to the others either.

Jill Wiltfong:

Radhika, Jonathan, what do you think? Do either of you feel encouraged to take up mountaineering as a hobby after all of that?

Radhika Papandreou:

No.

Jonathan Dahl:

No. I'm afraid of heights, so all power to you.

Radhika Papandreou:

Yes. I will root Esther on. How's that?

Jill Wiltfong:

Exactly. That's how I feel. I'm in the same boat.

Esther, there's also the harrowing story of an avalanche rescue you were involved in while climbing in the Himalayas. And even after that, you decided to continue your journey up the mountain.

So we've talked about the hard decision to turn back. This was a decision to stay and keep going.

Talk a little bit about how that was a different decision, how you made that call, and what you learned from the experience.

Esther Colwill:

Sure. This was an Everest moment.

We were a team of 12. The expedition was going well. We'd made it up through the different acclimatization camps to Camp 3 and were coming back down for a rest. We were really feeling pretty good about ourselves.

As we were coming down, we could actually see the avalanche fall and take out our tents at Camp 1 that we'd left behind to stay in.

But, of course, there were others on the mountain at Camp 1 as well. Thankfully, most were okay, but there were a lot of injuries.

So instead of a beautiful walk back down to base camp, it became a long day of rescue—a long day of trying to take these mountaineers through the complicated icefall.

After that, it really did shake the team, and several members went home. Myself and six others decided to stay.

We rested properly. We looked at the weather. We looked at everything. We intellectualized it as much as we possibly could, and the conclusion was that the risk was still the same.

I wasn't ready to give up on it. I really wasn't.

So we stayed. But I think it's one of those very personal decisions. Risk is real in all of our lives—how we look at it and whether we really evaluate it.

In some ways, when you're capable, you've thought it through and you're ready, it's less risky than making impulsive decisions. It's less risky than, you know, taking a fast merge on the LA freeways.

Jill Wiltfong:

That's a scene from the movie Blazing Saddles, where two men get caught in quicksand.

That's something, Jonathan, you've recently had firsthand experience with. You even wrote about it in Briefings Magazine, which was actually a bit of a nail-biter, I must say. Even though I knew you made it out okay, it was still a very compelling read.

So set the stage for us. Where were you, and what led you into that really terrifying situation?

Jonathan Dahl:

My girlfriend and I were on vacation in beautiful Key West. We did the thing you do in Key West, which is hike near the water.

I saw this beautiful path leading to an even more beautiful ocean, and I said, "That's great. Let's just go there."

The first thing I remember was hearing this sickening suction sound. Suddenly, I felt this pull and just yelled out, "Quicksand!"

Before I knew it, we were both up to our calves in it.

And it's true what they say: the more you fight quicksand, the harder it is to get out.

I remember thinking at the time that we hadn't seen anybody in that park for a whole hour of hiking, and this was crocodile land. So I was a little nervous.

Jill Wiltfong:

Yeah. So you wrote that this experience made you reflect on the notion that leaders sometimes need to take risks, but that they should do so with caution.

Unpack for us a little bit how being stuck in quicksand led to that revelation, and talk a little bit about your mindset at the time.

Jonathan Dahl:

We've been writing a lot at Korn Ferry about how corporate growth just isn't what it used to be. It was a little better this year, but pretty much it's been a real battle.

I think one of the big reasons is because leaders are afraid to take risks. There are just too many forces that are challenging and questioning them.

But you need to take risks—measured risks, as Esther said—to really get ahead.

And that was one of the things I came away with. It made sense to go on a hike and accept that it had some risk to it. The lesson wasn't not to do it. It was to do it more wisely.

Jill Wiltfong:

Yeah. You've mentioned that, oddly, you first felt foolish being stuck there, and then later realized that leaders make mistakes too.

What was the mistake you made here? And how do you translate that to your own experiences in business?

Jonathan Dahl:

I went home and looked up hiking in Key West, and of course, the very first thing it said was that you can get caught in quicksand. It's really common down there.

And that's a good example of the mistake I made: going into an area I hadn't been in without studying it in advance.

The same thing can happen in the corporate world.

But I also think you need an acceptance that you're going to make mistakes. I've made so many mistakes.

Jill Wiltfong:

No, I don't know any of them. What do you mean?

Jonathan Dahl:

Exactly. You're the first to call me on them.

If I pick up The New York Times, I always see the byline of the guy I didn't hire who's already won a Pulitzer Prize.

But you've got to move forward and accept that you're going to make mistakes along the way.

Jill Wiltfong:

Before you tell us how you got out of that situation, I do want to check in with Radhika and Esther.

If either of you got caught in quicksand, what strategy would you use to get out? What's your gut say?

Radhika Papandreou:

My gut says to do what Jonathan did: stay calm and try not to fight it.

But I don't know if I have that much faith in myself that I would actually do that. So kudos to Jonathan.

Esther Colwill:

Yeah, I agree. I'm sure the instinct would be to fight rather than stay calm, so it would be hard. Well done.

Jill Wiltfong:

Yeah. I do want to know, Jonathan. How did you get out? What did you do?

Jonathan Dahl:

I don't know why, but I did finally calm down. And you both make a very good point.

Once I did, it was kind of easy to realize, well, instead of pulling, if I just dug the sand and mud out with my bare hands, I could get out.

Of course, it ruined my sneakers.

Jill Wiltfong:

And your manicure that day.

Jonathan Dahl:

Yeah, my manicure. It was pretty bad.

But ever since then, I've really admired people in pressure situations. It's always the great leader you notice who's very calm under very stressful circumstances. Like you, Jill.

Jill Wiltfong:

That's a scene from the comedy movie Airplane!, where an airline passenger gets gripped with fear after some turbulence.

Radhika, you were actually in a real-life version of this when you were on a plane and a passenger next to you was similarly stricken with terror—which is very real for a lot of people.

Talk me through why the passenger was so scared. Set the scene for us, and then talk us through what you did.

Radhika Papandreou:

I was on a flight where we hit turbulence, but it was the kind that wasn't just bumpy.

We hit almost an air pocket, and it was like suspended animation on the flight. Anything on your tray table was floating for a couple of seconds, and then we came back down.

I had a passenger next to me, and she was extremely, extremely scared. She had a panic attack.

I also don't love flying, even though I do it a lot. But I could see that she was in distress. I was also very nervous, but in that moment, I knew she needed more than I did.

So I held her hand. I told her we were going to be okay. And then I sought help.

It was really interesting. There was actually a pilot with an iPad sitting in front of us, looking at the weather patterns and seeing what was going on.

I solicited his help to calm her down.

It was really about knowing when I wasn't the expert and seeking help. We stayed with her and talked to her until she started breathing okay again.

Jill Wiltfong:

And what did you learn from that that you take forward as you lead teams day to day?

Radhika Papandreou:

A couple of things.

As I think about myself as a leader, I was also very terrified about what was happening, but my reaction was less severe than hers. So it was really about trying to put my own emotions aside to be there for others.

And I think, as leaders in an organization, you just have to do that.

A great example—if I think about six years back with COVID—the leaders we spoke to didn't know anything more than we knew or their people knew. But they had to show that resilience, right? And show that, "We've got this," even though they were also scared of the unknown.

So I took that as a lesson.

The other lesson is, it doesn't matter how much I fly. I could fly eight times a week or 10 times a week. I'm still just a passenger.

So being able to identify somebody who had the expertise that I do not have—which is flying aircraft—was important.

As we think about leadership and advise our clients, it's really about making sure that you have the subject-matter experts around you to help, because you're not going to be the expert in everything. You just can't be.

Identifying that talent to surround yourself with in order to get things done is extremely important.

And allowing yourself to say, "You know what? I'm not the best at this. There are other people who know more than me," is a trait that I think is extremely important for leaders in this day and age.

Jill Wiltfong:

Yeah, I agree.

I do want to end on one more story from your teen years, Radhika, where you spent all night waiting in line for a Peter Gabriel concert.

A mandatory pause right here for a quick '80s culture pop quiz.

Jonathan and Esther, can you each name one song by Peter Gabriel? It's for all the bragging rights.

Jonathan Dahl:

"In Your Eyes."

Jill Wiltfong:

"In Your Eyes." The light, the heat—your eyes.

Jonathan Dahl:

Remember Say Anything? The movie with John Cusack? He holds up the—

Jill Wiltfong:

I like it. Esther, he took a good one.

Esther Colwill:

It's a good one. It's a good one. I'm like—it's really cool. I love it.

Jill Wiltfong:

One more? Can you think of one, Esther?

It's a hard one. JD, do you know a second one?

Esther Colwill:

No, remind me. Remind us.

Jill Wiltfong:

Don't look at me.

Radhika Papandreou:

Probably the most popular is "Sledgehammer" after "In Your Eyes."

Jill Wiltfong:

Gosh. There we go. Of course, Radhika probably has them all. She's got them all. She was there.

All right, Radhika, back to you.

So you're waiting in line all night, and then the doors open and chaos ensues, right? All these people start rushing in.

That can actually be quite scary and quite dangerous if you're in the middle of all of that.

So talk a little bit about what happened there.

Radhika Papandreou:

Absolutely.

And before I jump into the story, just for our listeners who were born after the 1990s, we used to have to wait in line and get paper tickets for concerts.

I grew up in Rochester, New York. We were waiting in line all night for the ticket counter to open.

People ran in. It wasn't a violent situation by any stretch of the imagination, but people were anxious to get their tickets.

I walked into chaos, and I wasn't the oldest person in the room. I had no authority. I was probably 17 at the time, between my junior and senior year of high school.

But I just calmly said, "How about we get organized?"

I worked with other people in the room to create a line where there was no line, create a system where people could go up to the counter one by one or group by group and get their tickets. Everyone was going to get their tickets.

I surprised myself that morning, after waiting all night, because I took charge of a room of strangers in a very natural way.

And I tell that story because it was the first time that I self-reflected and thought, "Huh, you know, there's something here around being able to lead people and really inspire people."

And so it's manifested throughout my career. I tell that story all the time.

Jill Wiltfong:

Yeah, I think it's a great lesson, right? You may not be the anointed leader, but there are opportunities to lead in all sorts of situations.

I think you just saw a problem and you solved it. Interesting.

Esther Colwill:

You really wanted that ticket.

Radhika Papandreou:

I did. I wanted everybody to be safe, everybody to go to the concert, and I wanted my own ticket.

And we accomplished all of those things.

Jill Wiltfong:

I love it.

You hear a lot of common themes, right? We heard: anticipate, do your research, do your homework, stay calm, lead.

When you see a need for people to be led, step up and take charge.

Any other lessons you guys have heard here as we've all reflected? What are you taking away from this conversation?

Jonathan Dahl:

I think what I come away with is how much real life translates into the corporate and leadership world.

You don't think it does. You think, "That's one part of my life, and here's the other," and you do want to keep them separate at times.

But the truth is, you can learn a lot from the corporate world in your private life, and your private life can teach you a lot about the corporate world.

Esther Colwill:

I love that.

And I kind of like that, with your two stories, some of these things happen in extraordinary circumstances and some just happen in the normal course of day-to-day life.

You're right. We're lucky. We fly a lot in our profession, and sometimes we forget and we don't think about it.

And then suddenly, the reality of us as humans and our vulnerability becomes very, very real.

Jill Wiltfong:

Radhika, Esther, Jonathan, thank you so much for joining me today and sharing your stories and what you learned from them.

I think it's true—we've all learned something. And I think there are leadership lessons in all of our day-to-day lives that we should listen for and learn from.

It's a good thought.

Thank you for being here.

Up next, stick around for This Week in Leadership.

Jill Wiltfong:

The executive producer of Briefings is Jonathan Dahl. Today’s episode was produced by Rupak Bhattacharyya and Zachary Dore, and it was edited by Jaren Henry McRae.

It contains reporting by Russell Pearlman, Ariane Cohen, Peter Lauria, and Meghan Walsh. Our video segment contains original artwork by Fraser Milton, Haley Kennel, Jonathan Pink, and Sasha Kotzek. Our web operations are managed by Ed McLaurin.

Don’t forget to read our magazine—available at newsstands and at kornferry.com/briefings.

That’s it for Korn Ferry Briefings. I’m Jill Wiltfong. See you next time.

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